Three-player perfect information games are usually undetermined

Recently, I gave the talk Undeterminacy and choice (Indeterminación y elección), at the XVII Colombian Mathematical Congress, in Cali. Slides can be found at my talks page.

The talk addressed the results of my recent paper on with Richard Ketchersid, mentioned in my previous entry, and some extensions, about which I expect to be posting soon. Afterwards, somebody asked me how much of the theory of determinacy can be extended to three-player (or more) perfect information games. Not much.

The following easy example was suggested by Richard Ketchersid: There is an undetermined one-move game where players I, II, III play 0 or 1, with I playing first, then II, and finally III. To see this, say that and are the numbers played, and that:

Player I wins iff

Player II wins iff and

Player III wins if

(One may think of this game as a perfect information version of paper-rock-scissors.) I imagine this observation is ancient, and would be grateful for a reference.

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2 Responses to Three-player perfect information games are usually undetermined

As suggested by Gerald, the notion was first introduced for groups. Given a directed system of groups, their direct limit was defined as a quotient of their direct product (which was referred to as their "weak product"). The general notion is a clear generalization, although the original reference only deals with groups. As mentioned by Cameron Zwa […]

A database of number fields, by Jürgen Klüners and Gunter Malle. (Note this is not the same as the one mentioned in this answer.) The site also provides links to similar databases.

As the other answer indicates, the yes answer to your question is known as the De Bruijn-Erdős theorem. This holds regardless of the size of the graph. The De Bruijn–Erdős theorem is a particular instance of what in combinatorics we call a compactness argument or Rado's selection principle, and its truth can be seen as a consequence of the topological c […]

Every $P_c$ has the size of the reals. For instance, suppose $\sum_n a_n=c$ and start by writing $\mathbb N=A\cup B$ where $\sum_{n\in A}a_n$ converges absolutely (to $a$, say). This is possible because $a_n\to 0$: Let $m_0

Consider a subset $\Omega$ of $\mathbb R$ of size $\aleph_1$ and ordered in type $\omega_1$. (This uses the axiom of choice.) Let $\mathcal F$ be the $\sigma$-algebra generated by the initial segments of $\Omega$ under the well-ordering (so all sets in $\mathcal F$ are countable or co-countable), with the measure that assigns $0$ to the countable sets and $1 […]

Sure. A large class of examples comes from the partition calculus. A simple result of the kind I have in mind is the following: Any infinite graph contains either a copy of the complete graph on countably many vertices or of the independent graph on countably many vertices. However, if we want to find an uncountable complete or independent graph, it is not e […]

I think that, from a modern point of view, there is a misunderstanding in the position that you suggest in your question. Really, "set theory" should be understood as an umbrella term that covers a whole hierarchy of ZFC-related theories. Perhaps one of the most significant advances in foundations is the identification of the consistency strength h […]

I'll only discuss the first question. As pointed out by Asaf, the argument is not correct, but something interesting can be said anyway. There are a couple of issues. A key problem is with the idea of an "explicitly constructed" set. Indeed, for instance, there are explicitly constructed sets of reals that are uncountable and of size continuum […]

The question seems to be: Assume that there is a Vitali set $V$. Is there an explicit bijection between $V$ and $\mathbb R$? The answer is yes, by an application of the Cantor-Schröder-Bernstein theorem: there is an explicit injection from $\mathbb R$ into $\mathbb R/\mathbb Q$ (provably in ZF, this requires some thought, or see the answers to this question) […]

If a set $X$ is well-founded (essentially, if it contains no infinite $\in$-descending chains), then indeed $\emptyset$ belongs to its transitive closure, that is, either $X=\emptyset$ or $\emptyset\in\bigcup X$ or $\emptyset\in\bigcup\bigcup X$ or... However, this does not mean that there is some $n$ such that the result of iterating the union operation $n$ […]

All I know about it is a paper by Benedikt on infinite games with more than two players:

It will be appear in Journal of Applied Logic. But I suspect that this is not the oldest reference for the undeterminacy.

Thanks! The paper looks interesting, and I didn’t know anything about this area.