Three-player perfect information games are usually undetermined

Recently, I gave the talk Undeterminacy and choice (Indeterminación y elección), at the XVII Colombian Mathematical Congress, in Cali. Slides can be found at my talks page.

The talk addressed the results of my recent paper on with Richard Ketchersid, mentioned in my previous entry, and some extensions, about which I expect to be posting soon. Afterwards, somebody asked me how much of the theory of determinacy can be extended to three-player (or more) perfect information games. Not much.

The following easy example was suggested by Richard Ketchersid: There is an undetermined one-move game where players I, II, III play 0 or 1, with I playing first, then II, and finally III. To see this, say that and are the numbers played, and that:

Player I wins iff

Player II wins iff and

Player III wins if

(One may think of this game as a perfect information version of paper-rock-scissors.) I imagine this observation is ancient, and would be grateful for a reference.

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2 Responses to Three-player perfect information games are usually undetermined

The answer is no in general. For instance, by what is essentially an argument of Sierpiński, if $(X,\Sigma,\nu)$ is a $\sigma$-finite continuous measure space, then no non-null subset of $X$ admits a $\nu\times\nu$-measurable well-ordering. The proof is almost verbatim the one here. It is consistent (assuming large cardinals) that there is an extension of Le […]

I assume by $\aleph$ you mean $\mathfrak c$, the cardinality of the continuum. You can build $D$ by transfinite recursion: Well-order the continuum in type $\mathfrak c$. At stage $\alpha$ you add a point of $A_\alpha$ to your set, and one to its complement. You can always do this because at each stage fewer than $\mathfrak c$ many points have been selected. […]

Stefan, "low" cardinalities do not change by passing from $L({\mathbb R})$ to $L({\mathbb R})[{\mathcal U}]$, so the answer to the second question is negative. More precisely: Assume determinacy in $L({\mathbb R})$. Then $2^\omega/E_0$ is a successor cardinal to ${\mathfrak c}$ (This doesn't matter, all we need is that it is strictly larger. T […]

(As I pointed out in a comment) yes, partial Woodinness is common in arguments in inner model theory. Accordingly, you obtain determinacy results addressing specific pointclasses (typically, well beyond projective). To illustrate this, let me "randomly" highlight two examples: See here for $\Sigma^1_2$-Woodin cardinals and, more generally, the noti […]

I am not sure which statement you heard as the "Ultimate $L$ axiom," but I will assume it is the following version: There is a proper class of Woodin cardinals, and for all sentences $\varphi$ that hold in $V$, there is a universally Baire set $A\subseteq{\mathbb R}$ such that, letting $\theta=\Theta^{L(A,{\mathbb R})}$, we have that $HOD^{L(A,{\ma […]

A simple example is the permutation $\pi$ given by $\pi(n)=n+2$ if $n$ is even, $\pi(1)=0$, and otherwise $\pi(n)=n−2$. It should be clear that $\pi$ is computable and has the desired property. By the way, regarding the footnote: if a bijection is computable, so is its inverse, so $\pi^{-1}$ is computable as well. In general, given a computable bijection $\s […]

The question is asking to find all polynomials $f$ for which you can find $a,b\in\mathbb R$ with $a\ne b$ such that the displayed identity holds. The concrete numbers $a,b$ may very well depend on $f$. A priori, it may be that for some $f$ there is only one pair for which the identity holds, it may be that for some $f$ there are many such pairs, and it may a […]

The reflection principle is a theorem schema in ZFC, meaning that for each formula $\phi(\vec x)$ we can prove in ZFC a version of the principle for $\phi$. In particular, it gives us that if $\phi$ holds (in the universe of sets) then there is some ordinal $\alpha$ such that $V_\alpha\models \phi$. It follows from this that (assuming its consistency) $\math […]

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One way we formalize this "limitation" idea is via interpretative power. John Steel describes this approach carefully in several places, so you may want to read what he says, in particular at Solomon Feferman, Harvey M. Friedman, Penelope Maddy, and John R. Steel. Does mathematics need new axioms?, The Bulletin of Symbolic Logic, 6 (4), (2000), 401 […]

All I know about it is a paper by Benedikt on infinite games with more than two players:

http://www.illc.uva.nl/Publications/ResearchReports/PP-2003-19.text.pdf

It will be appear in Journal of Applied Logic. But I suspect that this is not the oldest reference for the undeterminacy.

Thanks! The paper looks interesting, and I didn’t know anything about this area.